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Post by Psamathe on Jul 18, 2020 10:44:06 GMT
I wonder what people think about hunting (e.g. fox-hunting, pheasant shoots, grouse shoots, etc.) A complex and I suspect different thoughts relate to different types of (UK) hunt. Thinking UK only here as my experience is that "hunting" in other countries can be very different (e.g. most French hunting is very different from most UK hunting). Personally I've always been very against pretty well all UK "sport hunting" as I really can't appreciate how people can get pleasure from killing things. But not only about the mentality of those doing the killing for fun but also about the "providers" treatment of the environment e.g. breading and releasing animals to be hunted, killing protected species due to minimal predation on their chosen targets, etc. What re-started my thoughts on this was an article in the Guardian today www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-fox-hunting-sexual-illegal-ban-a9624846.html(my italic+bold)
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Post by accipiter on Jul 18, 2020 12:17:07 GMT
I doubt very much you will find any support here Ian, or much willingness to even debate the topic, in any case this topic has been debated a few times already if my memory serves me well. However, you may like to read Mark Avery and Chris Packham’s point of view whom find the whole affair has abhorrent as do I.
Alan
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Post by rowanberry on Jul 18, 2020 20:32:54 GMT
That article is actually terrifying, when you think that the current PM of this country advocated breaking the law so casually. One rule for them, and another for the rest of us. I did enjoy reading the comments at the end of it.
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Post by ianr on Jul 19, 2020 6:57:13 GMT
It could of and would be so easy to train the next generation of hounds to hunt a different sent and so those that love to ride to hounds could still get there thrill but arrogance dictates not, increased fines and closure of repeat offending hunts may help educate the thicker 'elite' amongst them. As for shoots any found persecuting endangered or protected species should see not only the keepers being prosecuted but the land owners too regardless of how willing the keeper is to take full responsibility. After all he has a tied cottage to protect. I don't like the conservatives or Boris nor any other MP's actually. I've lost a lot of faith over the last few years I don't like papers that dig up old news and as far as the guardian and laughingly called independent are concerned as long as Boris is breathing it's just too much to bare. I think all papers and news channels do the whole country a disservice in their biased and warped opinion of the news. jeez I feel old ian
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Post by kentyeti on Jul 20, 2020 13:15:16 GMT
My views have steadily changed as my vast time on marsh and moor (more than 9300 hours in over nine years) studying Short-eared Owls in depth, has progressed. From slavishly following many others in the anti-almost everything to do with most/all hunting and shooting etc. To a much-changed view.
Now that I've seen the reality of a significant percentage of what actually happens out on marsh and moor, including the very hard, and vital, work of predator control by gamekeepers at night, my views have changed significantly. More than half of my time studying the so-called daylight active Short-eared Owl, has been between dusk and dawn, when most are very active.
Yes, I've seen evidence of obvious raptor persecution, led by an evil, 'human' calling himself a gamekeeper. I reported what I'd seen to a local, supposedly very active raptor monitoring group, but never heard any more. I also reported one aspect of his despicable behaviour to the most senior politician in that UK country, with minimal response.
I've also been at a location where there has been very significant raptor and owl persecution, where there has recently started, what I have to agree is a fairly precarious, but still welcome, agreement between the local gamekeepers and the local raptor monitoring group. Which has seen the return of breeding Goshawk, Hen Harrier and Short-eared Owls. With the raptor group, to the full knowledge of the gamekeepers, using licences to diversionary feed the harriers when their young hatch.
Obvious to me now, are the enormous benefits to all ground nesting birds, of decent heather management and predator control on grouse moors. Where, very sadly, I have watched the devastating impact of predators, foxes in particular, after the gamekeepers were withdrawn from one. Short-eared Owl, Merlin and Hen Harrier nests became open season for foxes. And other, smaller predators, but it was the foxes that caused the most disturbance at night, and caused the highest level of losses of those bird species. Natural behaviour by the predators, some will say. Yes, indeed it is. And no problem when the British human population was vastly smaller than today’s 65 million. Whose activities have taken more and more suitable habitat away from the ground nesting birds I have already mentioned. Leaving us with the choice between doing nothing, and watching those species (and others such as Curlew and Lapwing), slowly become no more than a memory. Or take action that, to many is unpalatable, but keeps the most vulnerable bird species still breeding in Britain.
I've also found very large areas of heather moorland, ideal for Hen Harrier, Merlin and Short-eared Owl, with very limited breeding activity. I asked the question, is there any shooting here? No, was the answer. So, with no income to pay for them, no gamekeepers and therefore no predator control. Oh, not quite right. A very large organisation, were, at one point during my study of that area (ongoing when I can travel again), in semi-secrecy, hiring someone to shoot foxes, to, in the words of the person I spoke to who was closely involved, "get a pair of breeding Curlew back up here". That may have been one of the locations that caused quite a fuss a while back, and lots of resignations from that large organisation. In the words of a life-long birder and raptor monitoring group person, who has faced all that those evil gamekeepers who do so much harm to damage the reputation of all of them, said to me, “50% of the young Hen Harriers that come from the adults that do breed in that very large area, are taken by fox”.
So, I am a supporter of driven grouse moors that are properly managed. And a supporter of trying anything to get a sustainable balance between the shooting community and the security of breeding ground nesting birds. Including a long-term trial of brood management for Hen Harriers, the granting of diversionary feeding licences for the same species, and support for any local initiative that can improve the security of the birds I have already mentioned.
As for other shooting. I have a lot of admiration for wildfowlers, based on those I regularly see, and converse with, at one of my owl study locations. Many are farming folk who have shot some of their food for generations. They spend many hours in very uncomfortable conditions, including bad weather, for, at times, little reward. But, for them, it is an enjoyable time out on desolate marshland. And, like those wildfowlers, I despise those who come from the towns to shoot corn fed ducks that are perched around an artificially created pond.
Hunting? Nowt wrong with the sight of a hunt out on Britain’s countryside, it’s been part of British country life for centuries. As for the foxes being chased, and, in some cases, still killed? I have a love hate relationship with that animal. I once cut the bottom of my garden gate so that urban foxes can now access my wildlife friendly garden much more easily. They are welcome and much loved here in my garden. But, out on marsh and moor where I have seen them do so much damage to the rarer ground nesting birds, I have developed a very well-founded total hatred of them. I support their control, but certainly not to the extent they should be ripped apart by hunting hounds.
Yes, my views have changed. Based on the reality of what I have seen and recorded in the heart of the British countryside in those many thousands of hours.
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Post by Psamathe on Jul 20, 2020 15:39:36 GMT
It's interesting and clearly there are a range of good to bad. When I used to live in Oxfordshire the local hunt vociferously argued they had to use fancy dress, horses and dogs for the ritual killing of foxes. Daft thing was they were actually purchasing captive bred foxes (from Banbury), releasing them into artificial sets so they could dress-up and chase them to have them ripped to pieces by their dogs. And when I read about our Mondoshawan getting his jollies doing it I somewhat question the "hunt".
I think captive breeding pheasant (an introduced species in the UK/Europe), releasing them so wealthy bankers can come out from London to shoot them has turned killing into a hobby and has little to do with "management of the countryside".
In my student days I'd work on farms over summer holidays (one in Somerset and girlfriends family farm in Linconshire) and both hated "the hunt" and refused permission for them to enter their land - but that didn't stop them, didn't stop them driving cattle into barbed wire fences (in the heat of the chase) ... (vet bills ...).
I accept there will always be a range of behaviour of different groups but when the killing has become a pleasurable hobby for the wealthy I think it raises questions about those getting their kicks from killing "wild" animals.
But that is not to say I disagree with management of the countryside. When I lived in France, whilst I didn't hunt (and never went along to even watch), I did know quite a few of the local chasse, I gave them permission to hunt on my land (which is a legal process involving several pages of signed & witnessed agreement), they loved taking me to show me their countryside management works and they used to eat what they caught (except when they were acting to control pest species e.g. ragondin).
So I'm not universally against hunting, but I do have a real problem with people getting pleasure from killing.
Ian
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Post by kentyeti on Jul 21, 2020 9:27:14 GMT
I didn't know about this study until this morning, after I made my earlier post. If I had known about it much earlier, I would have submitted a summary of my relevant field notes to Aberdeen www.thejournal.ie/conserve-ground-nesting-birds-ireland-culling-5154810-Jul2020/?utm_source=All+Contacts&utm_campaign=c53fb47403-Morning+Briefing+210720&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_dd843c5cb6-c53fb47403-27609275&mc_cid=c53fb47403&mc_eid=c28684a829I've observed the behaviour of Hen Harrier, Merlin and Short-eared Owl at night when a fox is around a number of times. The nesting Hen Harriers and Merlins I have been aware of, stay quiet and, because I've never picked up thermal images of them flying, or heard any calling; I presume they hunker down. But the foxes still find them and take their young. Although in one instance it was reported that a fox found a nest which the female Hen Harrier then deserted, but the fox didn’t predate the young; Short-eared Owl females can desert if a fox finds her on eggs or about to lay eggs. That was what I almost certainly saw in fairly rare (for these days) Shortie breeding attempt in Kent not long ago. Back to the instance where a fox made a Hen Harrier desert her young. The young were then ‘checked’ by a Short-eared Owl, and finally predated by a Long-eared Owl. This all from a nest-cam set by Schedule One licensed field workers. All of that from my memory, I have it documented, but not sure where! Shorties, presumably because they are a nocturnally active bird, with young on a nest, will attack a fox within maybe one kilometre. The so-called quiet owl, then uses a very large and very loud vocabulary of calls, plus frequent dives at the fox, hitting it with wings along with distraction displays (more vocal at night). Often both the male and female owls, and for up to 40 minutes or longer. I have seen (from thermal imaging use inside my car), and heard (from ears either side of my head, LOL), them drive foxes away, but, of course, leaving young unattended for a significant amount of time, and exposing them to other nocturnal predators, as well as the sort of bad weather that can frequently sweep across high moorland. Foxes are excellent, intelligent hunters. If they are forced away by a pair of Short-eared Owls, they then know there is something being protected. And, again, something I have observed at night, they will come back on a subsequent night, and despite all the adult owls try to do, will predate their young.
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Post by accipiter on Jul 21, 2020 11:59:33 GMT
Ian, you could choose to buy both these books by Mark Avery and look into the work of (Wild Justice) for a “balanced view”, I have. Incidentally I don’t believe in killing wild animals including foxes; neither do animals kill for fun, only man does that. www.amazon.co.uk/Inglorious-Conflict-Uplands-Mark-Avery/dp/1472917413Driven grouse shooting, where flocks of Red Grouse are chased by lines of beaters so that they fly over lines of guns that shoot the fast-flying birds, is a peculiarly British field sport. It is also peculiarly British in that it is deeply rooted in the British class system. This multi-million pound business dominates the hills of the north of England the Pennines, the North Yorkshire Moors, the Cheviots and throughout Scotland. Grouse shooting is big business. VERY big business and backed by powerful, wealthy lobbying groups, its tendrils run throughout British society. Inglorious makes the case for banning driven grouse shooting. The facts and arguments are presented fairly but the author, Mark Avery, states from the start why he has, after many years of soul-searching, come down in favour of an outright ban. There is too much illegal killing of wildlife, such as Buzzards, Golden Eagles, and, most egregiously of all, Hen Harriers; and, as a land use, it wrecks the ecology of the hills. However, grouse shooting is economically important, and it is a great British tradition. All of these, and other points of view, are given fair and detailed treatment and analysis and the author talks to a range of people on different sides of the debate. The book also sets out Avery's campaign with Chris Packham to gain support for the proposal to ban grouse shooting, culminating in 'Hen Harrier Day', timed to coincide with the 'Glorious' 12th. Ever-controversial, Mark Avery is guaranteed to stir up a debate about field sports, the countryside and big business in a book that all British conservationists will want to read. www.amazon.com/Fighting-Birds-years-nature-conservation-ebook/dp/B008QP726Gwww.chrispackham.co.uk/news/wild-justice
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Post by Psamathe on Jul 21, 2020 12:09:56 GMT
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Post by kentyeti on Jul 22, 2020 9:46:59 GMT
Alan, I'll buy and read those books when I get time. To see if they are really balanced, and add to my knowledge and understanding, and not part of the ongoing class war in the countryside. So thank you for pointing me in their direction.Back to predator control. None of us here like killing animals. But this latest research, (not fully read yet), which I found this morning, seems to confirm what I have been very consistently seeing out on marsh and moor. No predator control, and you get already declining/rarer ground nesting birds continuing to decline.Yes, we can put our non-killing principles ahead of predator control, but if we do, we do that in the growing certainly we will lose regular sightings of much loved breeding birds, and even risk losing some species altogether, as breeding birds in Britain. And, if we are happy to get used to the prospect of only seeing Curlew, Lapwing, Hen Harrier, Merlin and Short-eared Owl (to name just the ones I see during my field studies), as over-wintering birds, then so be it.But that is not for me, I want to see all those wonderful species continue to breed in Britain.
European bird declines: Do we need to rethink approaches to the management of abundant generalist predators? besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2664.13695?mc_cid=1a84d05a5b&mc_eid=c28684a829&utm_campaign=1a84d05a5b-Morning+Briefing+220720&utm_medium=email&utm_source=All+Contacts&utm_term=0_dd843c5cb6-1a84d05a5b-27609275
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Post by rowanberry on Jul 22, 2020 10:38:41 GMT
Lots of interesting, well-thought-out viewpoints from everyone... I have learned quite a lot from reading them, especially about nest predation from Brian.
It can be difficult to maintain a balanced, unhysterical dialogue on these topics, because often the media stick their oar in and whip up readers' emotions as a way of selling their papers. There is a great deal of propaganda being peddled from both sides of the debate.
My dad was a fisherman, and my brother has hunted- I grew up in a farming family, and have the greatest respect for those who work the land. There's nothing worse than when uninformed politicians and townspeople pass laws governing a way of life and a countryside they know little about. I also love foxes- the ones in our garden have brought nothing but joy, (even when caching in my flowerpots) but I might feel very differently if I were trying to protect my flock's newborn lambs.... or in Brian's case, watching nests and eggs being destroyed.
Do they need to be controlled? No doubt, but I also agree that it doesn't need to be by a baying pack of hounds... especially when those foxes have been brought in specifically for that purpose. That's not managing their numbers for conservation, that's nothing more than satisfying a blood-lust sport akin to bullfighting.
I shall also look into Mark Avery's books- thanks for those recommendations, Alan.
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