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Post by Psamathe on Jun 17, 2020 9:46:05 GMT
..... Living in a bubble is not a long term option and a vaccine may or may not happen ian I agree but my personal opinion is that it has become a case of "to get there you don't want to start from here". Early political failures have put the UK in a far more challenging position. I (currently) think the way out is through a functional "track & trace" system (not some mega-£££ contract to a for-profit private company who have no experience in such operations). But the only thing we did early was to close down Track & Trace; everything else we were (and still are) late achieving. We seem to suffer from the "not invented here" syndrome where we completely ignore and reject practices that have worked elsewhere because "we know better". e.g. our Contact Tracing app (still weeks after release date and nowhere to be seen) - problems largely stemming from UK's rejection of the direction virtually all other countries were moving. WHO repeating "Test, Test, Test" every 5 minutes but UK was not listening and in the end fiddles the figures by sending out unnecessary test kits and counting them as "completed tests". I think the only way forward is going to be through tracking and tracing but those setting-up that system say it wont be fully functional until the autumn and the Government are not even listening to the local authorities repeatedly asking for the powers they need to control local outbreaks (but those local authorities still are not getting the information they need anyway ...). It is interesting looking at the countries who previously suffered from SARS and MERS to see how their Government response limited the impact and how in the UK we ignored their knowledge and experience and have created a complete disaster. Ignoring Belgium (only because they are an anomaly due to their extensive testing and counting anything with C in the name as COVID), the UK has the highest death rate of any country in the world (worse than Brazil)! (Data below as of 17 June 2020) from www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/And our Government seem proud of their performance. Ian
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Post by accipiter on Jun 17, 2020 19:57:56 GMT
In other words, we’re all doomed as long as this lot are in charge. Nevertheless, bubble” what bubble we’ll have no bubbles ear, I’m shielding, since it makes common sense to me, although common sense is not so common these days me thinks.
Alan
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Post by Psamathe on Jul 16, 2020 21:36:57 GMT
Question: Has anybody had a C-19 test? I've been asked to take one (antigen) but heard they are pretty unpleasant. It would be a home test, self administered and I do wonder if I'll be able to do it properly (if it's so unpleasant), so anybody with any experience?
Thanks Ian
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Post by Tringa on Jul 17, 2020 7:07:02 GMT
I've not had a test, or know anyone who has. However, until we get a good testing system that tests the general population it isn't going to give us much useful information. Given one of the government's messages is there are people who have COVID19 without symptoms we need to test as many people as possible, ie those without symptoms, or we are not going to know the incidence of COVID19 in the environment. I have been watching the death rate per million of population for a good while now and seen the UK's rate climb. The data I use is slightly different but is in the same directions - www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries - and it is concerning. Dave
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Post by ianr on Jul 17, 2020 10:37:30 GMT
Question: Has anybody had a C-19 test? I've been asked to take one (antigen) but heard they are pretty unpleasant. It would be a home test, self administered and I do wonder if I'll be able to do it properly (if it's so unpleasant), so anybody with any experience? Thanks Ian I've not nor do I know anyone who has and as Dave says more people should be tested. As for the unpleasant-ness what I've seen on the telly is a swab right to the back of the throat seems to make people gag a little and one right up yer hooter till your eyes water Got to be worth the pain though ian
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Post by accipiter on Jul 17, 2020 11:38:14 GMT
Neither have I, in any case “the test” is not one hundred per cent accurate; it needs a biopsy taken direct from the lungs which is just not possible to do on mass.
Masks are not the “complete answer” either they just help, that’s why plastic face shields are also worn too in order to prevent microscopic droplets gaining entry, and as for EXPERTS they don’t always have all the answers you only have to look at today’s fiascos; and I’m not just speaking of medical matters either, pick any subject you like throughout history and it plain to see most answers / decisions are based on a hypothesis that’s’ why they often turn out to be wrong.
I don’t want to mention my present health problem in detail as an example but the great minds of the medical profession have got together and decided I don’t need to eat or drink ever again, spoken metaphorically of course. Anyhow, I just happen to mention what if my body cry’s out in weakness and pain, oh don’t worry about that came the reply, whatever you do don’t panic, I know you couldn’t make it up could you. All I can say it’s just as well I have a jolly very good sense of humour as I continue to walk in a very erratic way down the path of doom.
Anyhow my latest conversation with the high priestess of the medical profession went something like the following, so what you really mean to say is (the pellet with the poison in the vessel with the pestle, but the chalice from the plaice has the brew that is true) that’s right Alan you’ve got it in one.
The world is also behaving as if it’s gone completely mad over the situation we now find ourselves in instead of “very strict lockdown measures” being implemented from day one; consequently it’s now been left to spiral into sheer anarchy, anarchy meaning lack of authority from the governmental clowns of the world. In fact I can now see this plague carrying on spreading throughout the world “indefinitely,” and why do I say that, the answer is simple, it’s simply because the human condition is based fundamentally on greed, and selfishness, played out in vivid detail for all to see; e.g. sheer stupidity shown from the masses further spreading the disease throughout this country and the world.
I should also mention the consequence of contracting covid nineteen for those with underlining medical conditions, including those of a certain age is most probably going to end in good night Vienna, otherwise referred to as the big sleep. Even those who are perfectly healthy and still young who contract the disease are possibly going to suffer from multiple organ failure at some later point in life. As for the perfect working vaccine being found don’t hold your breath since it took sixty years to find a working vaccine for polio; and covid nineteen is a far more complex virus then polio.
Alan
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Post by Psamathe on Jul 17, 2020 22:17:45 GMT
Interesting analogy used by one of the Gov. Scientific Advisers I saw the other day. If we had one UK airliner a week crashing with no survivors would we be expecting our Government to be relaxing air safety rules? And the UK deaths last week is actually more than 2 airliners a week (e.g. Boing 737s)
And that's the UK alone. Start adding in more aircraft for all the other countries ...
Ian
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Post by accipiter on Aug 1, 2020 6:28:23 GMT
Why are they still letting people fly off on holiday, that way covid 19 is (never going to be defeated,) or indeed crowd onto beaches it’s plain stupid; lockdown should mean just that, even taking holidays within this country is just plain madness too. Indeed those places that have outbreaks should not be allowed to leave their houses or indeed leave the towns and cities.
Alan
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Post by snowlynx on Aug 1, 2020 7:57:04 GMT
Why are they still letting people fly off on holiday, that way covid 19 is (never going to be defeated,) or indeed crowd onto beaches it’s plain stupid; lockdown should mean just that, even taking holidays within this country is just plain madness too. Indeed those places that have outbreaks should not be allowed to leave their houses or indeed leave the towns and cities. Alan I agree the government isn't policing the lockdown rules. There were huge rallies recently around the country with no social distancing at all. Police did nothing. But I'm not sure it is possible to completely eradicate the virus by lockdown... even if we could lockdown until the virus is totally gone in this country (unlikely) someone would eventually bring it from abroad. I think we desperately need a vaccine and effective treatments. Also, how is it N.I. has a contact tracing app but not the rest of the UK?
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Post by Psamathe on Aug 1, 2020 9:06:05 GMT
I'm now tending to agree with what virtually all the epidemiologists and scientists are saying (even those on the Government's advisory bodies) - that the UK Government covering England does not have a "strategy". Unlike Scotland that has a strategy for "zero" (which they wont achieve but are getting close), England/Johnson seem happy to bumble along with a rather serious level of infections/cases/deaths but because it seems lower than the previous peaks they seem to not mind and all totally "see what comes to mind today".
I'm uncertain about blaming those crowded onto beaches as for many they are only doing what Johnson has told them, go out, spend money, go to bars, restaurants, work, etc. If somebody follows that advice, takes the train out from London to find everybody else has also followed the same advice can you expect them to turn round and head home?
Message from Johnson is clear - particularly when you see pics of him meeting and greeting on PR photoshoots, no mask, no social-distancing; when you see Chancellor serving food in restaurants (PR photoshoot) to encourage everybody to "get out there - it's now open" with no mask, etc. When the vulnerable high risk people are being told it's OK to go out now as thinks are safe - clear message is lockdown is over. Can you blame people who follow that Government message? I agree it's daft but I wonder if the cause is Government rather than those following Governemnt advice.
Ian
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Post by Psamathe on Aug 1, 2020 9:39:41 GMT
One aspect that has infuriated me is that the Government (in England) is trying to pass blame for the rise in cases to the public for not following the rules e.g. "PM: follow the rules or risk second major lockdown" - trying to suggest the increase has nothing to do with their policies of opening pubs, restaurants, lowering social distancing, return to work, open hairdressers, etc.
We've even has MPs blaming the BAME communities for the new rules around the North claiming it's because they didn't follow lockdown.
And, with daily changes to "the rules" does anybody actually know what the rules are? I don't have the 1st idea. Perpetual changes and if you miss e.g. TV news one day you are immediately lost in knowing what today's rules are. Of course you might still be aware of the changes coming in next Monday unless you miss the TV news on Sunday ... And given how so many of the rules follow no logic, common sense does not help a great deal (e.g. you can sit shoulder to shoulder in a mostly sealed aircraft for a few hours but if you live in Manchester you can't go to the pub except with members of your own household or if they are not part of your "bubble" but if you are from Manchester you can still get on that shoulder to shoulder flight to Spain ..... but maybe I missed the new this morning and it's "all change" again)
Ian
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Post by Tringa on Aug 1, 2020 9:44:56 GMT
Agree with the views above.
Until we have a vaccine, reducing contact and non essential travel as much as possible seems the only way to control it, at least to a degree.
The effect on the economy would be great but what effect has the more than 46,000 deaths had on the UK economy?
The rules aren't being policed well but fault lies with the Government.
Unfortunately the Government do not want tell people what to do and wants to rely on people's common sense! What world do they live in? Not the one I inhabit.
We need essential goods and service coming into and going out of the country but no one is going to die if they don't have a foreign holiday so non-essential travel should not have been discouraged, it should have been banned. We are an island; it shouldn't be that difficult to achieve.
I think UK based holidays are a bit safer as in most cases large number of UK holidays don't require hundreds of people to pass through airports, but spikes of infection of COVID19 need to be monitored and if necessary the Government would need to clamp down.
In my opinion one of the most ridiculous easements of the lockdown was to allow anyone in England to travel any distance for any reason. I think every police force uses APNR so it would not have been difficult if the Government had said no non-essential travel more than X miles from the registered address for the vehicle. It would have caused some problems initially, but if people knew they were going to be stopped the impetus of some to travel and congregate in well known areas would, I think, be reduced.
I have to remind myself I am lucky in being retired so I do not have a job that I could lose and even in London I am fairly close to a bit of open land(though I think anyone in most cities is not that far away from a park or other open area).
Dave
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Post by Psamathe on Aug 1, 2020 10:45:07 GMT
I also suspect there is now widespread lack of confidence in the Government (England) - though very much a personal opinion. Johnson and his buddies have been "found-out" so many times now and many of those shortcomings have caused horrendous numbers of deaths. e.g. their claim they had to delay lockdown because of "behavioural fatigue" (probably doubling the number of deaths). Except it now transpires there is no such things as "behavioural fatigue". The Government's own SPI-B (Scientific Pandemic Group on Behaviours) were "amazed" by this claim as none of their behavioural experts knew of such a thing (because it does not exist) (from www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-behavioural-fatigue-uk-lockdown-delay-science-chris-witty-robert-west-a9644971.html) So extra 20,000 deaths because somebody in/around Government invented a non-existing phenomenon - what does that say about the reliability of Government decision making? And then there was Hancock's fictional "protective ring" around Care Homes (which I wont go on about due to personal family impacts from this hypothetical dream - too much bitterness on my part). But a lot of families have suffered thanks to Government failings here. Ian
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Post by accipiter on Aug 1, 2020 16:16:06 GMT
I forgot to mention the fool hardy young, by which I mean those in their late teens and mid-twenties whom seem to think they are immortal, consequently adding further fuel to the flames bringing sheer anarchy. However, I fear those in the seats of power have been far too lenient from day one given the gravity of the situation. Therefore they should have created something akin to martial law since the civil authorities are unable to function at all, i.e. the genie is out of the bottle.
Alan
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Post by Psamathe on Aug 1, 2020 16:32:11 GMT
I forgot to mention the fool hardy young, by which I mean those in their late teens and mid-twenties whom seem to think they are immortal, consequently adding further fuel to the flames bringing sheer anarchy. However, I fear those in the seats of power have been far too lenient from day one given the gravity of the situation. Therefore they should have created something akin to martial law since the civil authorities are unable to function at all, i.e. the genie is out of the bottle. Alan I agree but wonder if it's deeper than young. Take Cummings behaviour (considered quite acceptable by Johnson in a very public way). Similarly, Johnson's Dad's holiday in Greece when Foreign Office were "advising against all non-essential travel" and Greece considered bad enough to require quarantine on return to UK. These widely reported incidents from "the elite" send a very powerful message to the young. If people like Cummings and Johnson's Dad have such freedom why can't they visit a beach for (in their opinion) a well deserved day out. If those making the rules want people to obey them then they need to obey them themselves. But we are seeing a "Do as I say Not as I do" situation. That must help youngsters justify or decide on ignoring rules. Ian
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