faz
New Member
Posts: 22
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Post by faz on Jul 13, 2015 7:24:13 GMT
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Post by rowanberry on Jul 13, 2015 8:21:02 GMT
Could it be a young kestral?
Did it fly through the fencing wires in your second image? That is a striking photo!
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Post by Harold Smith on Jul 13, 2015 8:51:24 GMT
It certainly looks like a Kestrel to me and I think it is a female as the crown is coloured brown.
Harold.
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Post by dogghound on Jul 13, 2015 11:43:37 GMT
Its a juvenile male Kestrel.
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faz
New Member
Posts: 22
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Post by faz on Jul 13, 2015 11:43:50 GMT
Could it be a young kestral? Did it fly through the fencing wires in your second image? That is a striking photo! Unfortunately not my shot it is a stunning picture though
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faz
New Member
Posts: 22
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Post by faz on Jul 13, 2015 11:46:00 GMT
thank you all for your answers
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Post by Harold Smith on Jul 13, 2015 14:45:17 GMT
Its a juvenile male Kestrel. Hallo Dogghound,
When I saw the photograph I assumed it was a female mainly due to the colour of the crown. I've looked up my guides and neither show a juvenile. They only mention that a juvenile is similar to a female. What are the differences that make it a juvenile male?
regards,
Harold.
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Post by dogghound on Jul 13, 2015 16:39:01 GMT
Hi Harold, a combination of the following features Grey rump - a feature of males often seen in a lot of juveniles. Mature females may occasionally show this feature but combined with the other features below it's unlikely to be one. Streaked breast and underparts - an adult female would show a flecked breast with finer spotting which doesnt form stripes. Pale edging to the greater wing coverts - on the photo of the kestrel sitting you can see pale edging to the wing coverts which is a feature of juvenike birds not seen in adults. Our tail feather shape - the outer tail feathers appear to be quite narrow and pointed. They are broader with wider edges in adults. Wing feather age - this appears to be consistent throughout the wing (secondaries and primaries), an adult bird should be showing some signs of moult by now I would suspect.
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Post by Harold Smith on Jul 13, 2015 18:33:44 GMT
Thank you Dogghound.
Your reply is descriptive and informative, particularly for a very amateur/casual birdwatcher like me. I will keep it in my notes for future reference.
Regards,
Harold.
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Post by accipiter on Aug 17, 2015 10:43:51 GMT
Hi Harald this is most certainly a juvenile kestrel but sexing these birds at this age is “very difficult “as you quite rightly say as both sexes do look “very much alike. “Most males have a completely brown head but not all, females have a brown head but as the males grow older the head becomes grey / blueish but small percentages can “still have a brown tinge to the head, confusing is it not! 50% of juvenile males have a grey rump and upper tail coverts, the rest show as females; juveniles are also paler in colour including the cere. The similarity is so similar it is imperative that all the details are seen extremely well in order to separate the two which this photo fails to show in my opinion.
I have had a good look at this photo and to be quite honest I do not think it is possible to identify the sex of this bird as the only reliable way to sex juveniles is to see their moult later in their first winter specifically the rump and upper tail coverts. Juvenile birds show their first moult soon after they fledge this moult does not include their primary and tail feathers. Juvenile male / females as I have already explained are very difficult to separate and to add to the problem of sexing some adult females have an almost male pattern to the scapulars and the upper wing but the greater coverts may be barred, in other words they can be very variable in their plumage.
Neither can size difference be used to sex kestrels in the field as the difference is only slight, and “believe it or not “young females can have” very grey rumps and tails too. Wing measurement cannot be used to sex juveniles’ ether as this can overlap in size quite considerably. If I was to pick out the most outstanding feature to separate adult from juvenile I would say the fresh light sandy appearance would be the first thing to look for plus pale buff or light brown tips to the coverts and primaries as opposed to the adult bird, others might look for other features. Take a look at those broad wings in this photo I can quite clearly see where some people could be confused and is something I spoke about in the other kestrel thread, especially darting through a fence as this bird has. Does the name Sparrowhawk come to mind; well it could if one was less experienced!
If one was to watch these birds every day for a whole summer you would also be very impressed by their prowess too believe me, their mobbing and piracy attempts is quite something to behold and is something that most people probably never see.
At this point you are probably thinking but this even more confusing now and you would be quite right to think so, but less face it in the end “most birders” and I would class myself as one of them would be very happy to identify the fact that they have just seen a male or female kestrel or a juvenile irrespective of its sex. In other words I do not normally bother, but then again I am not most birders but a most unusual one in the fact that I only specialise in a very few species although I do take a general interest in most birds. And lastly if I may just say “Beware of posted photos” though as these “can be very confusing as well,” remember the expert who said flying wood pigeon look just like small raptors in the field which just goes to show things are not always as they seem!
But if it is any consolation adult male and female are normally very easy to tell apart as their plumage differs greatly as you probably know.
Alan the wandering minstrel
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Post by Harold Smith on Aug 17, 2015 13:07:33 GMT
Hallo Accipiter,
Thank you for your comments. They are very interesting.
Welcome to WABI.
It's good to have another ex Wabber join WABI and I see that you now have 2 Cs in your user name.
Harold.
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Post by accipiter on Aug 17, 2015 13:48:01 GMT
Thank you Herald for your warm welcome here is some more information for you. Young female with grey rump scroll to bottom of the page to see the photo, as one can see these people also had problems sexing juvenile kestrels as this piece explains in the third paragraph. freespace.virgin.net/lewis.goodhand/wavkestrel.htmThe sexing of juvenile kestrels is well documented and the method below is agreed upon by some of this country’s top people in their field. Google - Moulting ageing and sexing kestrels Taylor and Francis on line) the paper is titled Ringing and migration, scroll down to the section entitled discussion and summary. There you will find my point on sexing juveniles’ in their first winter. Alan the wandering minstrel
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Post by Harold Smith on Aug 18, 2015 10:10:06 GMT
Thanks Alan
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Post by silversea on Aug 20, 2015 16:36:32 GMT
One would ask why it would bother going through wires when it could just go over. It would be an unnecessary waste of energy and precision.
But given how everything is positioned, I suppose the picture is just misleading and it was probably taking off from either wire instead of straight-up flying between.
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Post by accipiter on Aug 21, 2015 7:47:49 GMT
Bird behaviour I find is most exciting and it does certainly look like this bird is flying between the wires, birds are capable of play and this may be just one example of it, I have seen youngsters playing with sticks and feathers for instance.
Corvids do so too the raven often tumbles in flight as you may have witnessed yourself, in the case of the kestrel this bird may be doing this stunt from the sheer joy of being alive, given their short life expectancy who can blame them!
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